Johnny Carson, the Rolling Stone Interview, March 1979

Johnny Carson on the cover of Rolling Stone, March 22, 1979. This is the best quality image I could find of the cover.

Johnny looking sharp in a 1970's ad for Johnny Carson Apparel.

Along with Johnny Carson’s 1967 interview with Alex Haley for Playboy, Carson’s 1979 interview for Rolling Stone was one of the most revealing he ever gave. Timothy White interviewed Carson for the March 22, 1979 issue, and while it doesn’t touch on as many social issues as Carson’s Playboy interview, it is quite illuminating about Carson’s personality. You can read the whole 20,000 word interview online here.

White attempted to get to the bottom of Carson's appeal, asking him "Why do you think people feel so comfortable with you?"

Carson responded: “I can't analyze that. I really can't. I just do what I do. People ask me, ‘How do you analyze that you've stayed on 17 years and the competition has dropped off?’ See, either way you answer that, you end up sounding like a schmuck. If you say, ‘Well, obviously I do a much better job than they do,’ or say, ‘I'm more talented,’ then people say, ‘You egotistical bastard!’ If, on the other hand, you play Harry Humble and say, ‘Gee, I don't know,’ then that sounds idiotic, too. So no matter what you say, people say, ‘Aw, come on now.’ I don't try to shoot for an average audience. I do the things I like to do, and I think I've learned what people will accept from me. That's just an intuitive thing.”

Carson bluntly summed up the contradiction between his public and private persona by saying, “I'm an extrovert when I work. I'm an introvert when I don't.” That might be the best distillation of any of the attempts made by writers to analyze Carson’s personality.

In Rolling Stone Carson expressed his annoyance with the ignorance of the American public, saying:

“I read a survey last week, and it said that a large percentage of the American public had not read a book since they got out of high school. They read magazines, periodicals, but not a book. To read about what Bianca Jagger is doing is not high on my list of priorities. I could not give a shit what Bianca Jagger is doing, or what Jackie O is doing, but those are the people you constantly read about.”

Carson also revealed that the reason The Tonight Show moved from New York City to Los Angeles was actually pretty simple: 

“I lived in New York 17 years; I like the idea, as corny as it sounds, of a yard and a house. Maybe that's the old Midwestern values, but I like being able to walk outside in the morning and sit around; you can't do that in New York. That's the only reason.”

There are other interesting parts to Carson’s Rolling Stone interview, and it’s an essential read for anyone interested in the complex personality of Johnny Carson.

Alex Haley Interviews Johnny Carson, Playboy magazine, December 1967

Author Alex Haley appears on The Tonight Show on February 2, 1977, to promote his book Roots. Haley handed Johnny Carson a hefty tome that contained his family's genealogy going back hundreds of years. This show is discussed in Kenneth Tynan's 1978 article about Carson, "Fifteen Years of the Salto Mortale."

Johnny Carson, 1960's.

One of the most revealing interviews Johnny Carson ever gave was to journalist Alex Haley, published in the December 1967 issue of Playboy. While Carson was cautious about sharing any of his private beliefs on The Tonight Show, in the pages of Playboy he was much more honest and forthcoming. You can read the entire interview online here.

At the beginning of the piece, Haley writes, “Out of the camera's range, however, Carson maintains a passionately private life that has earned him an unenviable reputation as an uptight, lonely misanthrope.” It’s interesting that even as early as 1967 this was already the standard description of Johnny Carson. 

Carson tells Haley of the meetings he has with random strangers, saying, “Everybody I meet in public seems to want to audition for me.” That would have been fatiguing for anyone, and I can imagine it would have been hellish for Carson, who deeply cherished his privacy. 

As someone who writes about pop culture, I spend a decent amount of time thinking about celebrity and fame, and how it affects the people who gain it. I found Johnny Carson’s opinion to be very interesting. Carson said:

“I don't think it's you that changes with success—it's the people around you who change. Because of your new status, they change in relation to you. Let me give you an example. I loved the towns I grew up in as a boy, and after I became a celebrity, I went back several times. I would have had the time of my life seeing the old places and the old faces again, but the attitude of those same people was, ‘I guess you're so big we bore you now.’ What was I supposed to say to that? Agree with them? They'd be furious. But if I said I was enjoying myself, they'd say I was being condescending. You see what I mean?”

Carson makes an interesting point: that people change in relation to a celebrity. I’ve thought about this quote as I’ve been reading Laurence Leamer’s biography of Carson, King of the Night. Leamer interviewed many, many people who knew Johnny Carson. Some of them have great memories of him; some of them have terrible memories of him. But their memories of Carson remain fresh in their minds because of his celebrity, not necessarily because what Carson did was interesting or noteworthy. In the 1982 TV special Johnny Goes Home, which followed Carson back to Norfolk, Nebraska, the town where he spent much of his youth, Carson attended his high school reunion. During his speech, he read a letter from a schoolmate named Georgine who remembered that back in second grade, during an activity where teams were being chosen, young Johnny shouted out, “Don’t pick Georgine, she runs like a duck.” Georgine also wrote to Carson, “I never watch your show…in my opinion, you were a spoiled brat.” While Carson took it in good humor, it shows that people remembered even the most mundane encounters they had with Carson. Despite having never watched The Tonight Show, Georgine probably told people that story about young Johnny Carson a million times.

While Carson’s comedy may seem tame to 2016 audiences, it’s important to remember that during the 1960’s he was constantly pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable to say on national television. Carson told Haley:

“But nearly anything you say, you can't help offending somebody out there. If I say ‘naked,’ if I use the word ‘pregnant,’ I'll get probably 500 letters complaining that I'm hastening national immorality. A lot of them are from nuts—you can tell that—but many are from perfectly sincere people who happen to think that practically anything is immoral.”

In Playboy, Carson wasn’t shy about his opinions on the pressing issues of the day. He had this to say about race in America:

“Too many whites are in favor of integration and equality only so long as it never touches them, only until some Negro makes a move to buy into their block, until they find themselves competing with Negroes for the same jobs. This isn't to say that there hasn't been some progress in the past decade; but it's been too little and too slow—just enough to give Negroes a taste of freedom and equality, but not enough to make either a reality. So the discontent and frustration erupt into violence. It's understandable, but we all know it's not going to solve anything.”

Carson also criticized the government for not giving the public more information about what was happening in Vietnam. While Henry Bushkin described Carson as an “Eisenhower Republican” in his 2013 memoir, most other writers have described Carson as an unapologetic liberal. Carson’s political views also influenced the creation of his character Floyd R. Turbo in 1977. Floyd was a knee-jerk conservative who always dressed in a plaid hunting jacket and delivered editorials in opposition to many liberal ideas. One of Floyd’s famous lines was, “If God didn’t want us to hunt, He wouldn’t have given us plaid shirts.”

In a 1970 article in Life magazine, Carson explained some of his liberal views:

"In my living room I would argue for liberalization of abortion laws, divorce laws, and there are times when I would like to express a view on the air. I would love to have taken on Billy Graham. But I'm on TV five nights a week; I have nothing to gain by it and everything to lose. I don’t care what the critics say about the show’s blandness.”

It’s interesting to me that Carson was so upfront and honest about his opinions in a major magazine. Obviously he wasn’t too worried about anybody being offended by what he said. That’s one reason why his 1967 interview in Playboy is so compelling, as Carson comes across as not an inscrutable loner, but rather a man who had very definite views on many different subjects.

Missed Connections at the Coffee Shop, a parody by Mark C. Taylor

I find the Craigslist postings for Missed Connections to be really entertaining to read, so I came up with some fake ones of my own, all set in a coffee shop. 

W4M: You tried to order your coffee from the wrong end of the counter. The barista asked you if you wanted a cappuccino, and you didn’t know what that was. We talked briefly when I tried to help you put a lid on your coffee. You said you didn’t need one, and then you spilled most of it as you tried to open the door. My heart was melting for you. You’re a lot older than I am, but I’d love to expand your knowledge of coffee.

M4W: You were wearing a big floppy hat, Crocs with thick black socks, and a fanny pack. We didn’t talk, but I saw the lustful look in your eyes behind those thick lenses. 

M4W: You were standing in line right in front of me. You were on your cell phone literally the whole time. You flipped your long dark hair and it hit me right in the face. You didn’t seem to notice. You seemed annoyed at the barista, and you said she should “know exactly what I want” because you “come in here all of the freaking time.” I really liked the way you put that snotty little barista in her place. Maybe we can get coffee sometime? I know just how you like your mochas after you made the barista re-make it three times. 

W4M: You were wearing a white suit, which matched your hair. I couldn’t quite tell what kind of shoes you were wearing. Maybe Allen Edmonds? We talked for a minute as we both got straws. You complimented my dress. I should have gotten your number. I’m a sociologist, and I hope you enjoy status signifiers as much as I do. Tell me where my dress was from so I know it’s really you.

M4M: You were playing Pokémon Go the whole time and you didn’t even seem to notice that you were inside. You muttered something about getting resources when I tried to talk to you. Your unfamiliarity with basic social norms intrigued me. Wanna see if we can find Pikachu together?

Kenneth Tynan on Johnny Carson: "Fifteen Years of the Salto Mortale"

Johnny Carson in 1976, not even halfway through his run of hosting The Tonight Show.

A 1976 ad for Johnny Carson's clothing line. He looks very dapper and dashing here as he goes stargazing.

In February of 1978, Kenneth Tynan, the British theater critic, published a lengthy profile of Johnny Carson in The New Yorker under the title “Fifteen Years of the Salto Mortale.” The term salto mortale refers to a dangerous leap on a high wire that could produce a lethal outcome, or more generally, to a dangerous undertaking. “Salto mortale” is used in the article by the director Billy Wilder, who compares Carson’s nightly hosting of The Tonight Show to an aerialist working without a net. 

Tynan’s profile of Carson ran more than 22,000 words, and it’s one of the best articles about Carson. (You can read all 22,000 words online here.) Tynan did his homework, as he weaves in jottings from his Tonight Show viewings from 1976 and 1977. Tynan even accompanied Carson and his third wife Joanna to Harvard University, where Carson was presented with the Hasty Pudding Theatricals’ Man of the Year award. Tynan’s piece captures Carson at a peak of his popularity, as by 1978 an average of 17 million people a night tuned in to The Tonight Show. Tynan also captures Carson halfway through his reign over the late-night airwaves. Articles about Carson from the 1960’s and 1970’s inevitably ask, “How much longer will he keep doing this?” The answer turned out to be longer than anyone, perhaps even Carson himself, could have predicted.

“Fifteen Years of the Salto Mortale” offers several insightful observations about the personality of Johnny Carson. In May of 1976, Carson gave the commencement address at his old high school in Norfolk, Nebraska. During a Q&A session, a student asked him, “Has success made you happy?” Carson’s answer was: “I have very high ups and very low downs. I can all of a sudden be depressed, sometimes without knowing why. But on the whole I think I’m relatively happy.” Tynan also happened to be watching The Tonight Show when Carson said to actress Madeline Kahn, “I’ve had a little therapy myself, to cut down the hills and get out of the valleys.” 

These are interesting admissions for Carson to make. As I was reading Henry Bushkin’s 2013 memoir, titled simply Johnny Carson, and Bushkin was describing some of Carson’s mood swings, I thought to myself, “You know, maybe Johnny Carson wasn’t this cold, aloof person, maybe he was just depressed.” (I reviewed Bushkin's book here.) Obviously I can’t say with any certainty if that’s true or not, but it crossed my mind. Writers have been trying to analyze Johnny Carson’s personality since about 1965, and it’s debatable if any of them have been successful or not. And yet, here I am writing this piece, an article about an article about Johnny Carson, plowing onwards in my attempt to learn more about this fascinating man. I suppose what fascinates us about Johnny Carson is that he made everything look so effortless on the show, but nearly all sources indicate that he was anything but effortless off the show. I doubt that so much ink will be spilled over Jay Leno, Carson’s successor at The Tonight Show, since Leno gives a pretty good indication that he’s exactly the same on and off screen. But Carson was more mysterious, and thus it becomes a challenge to analyze him, to figure out “what made him tick,” so we can learn his secrets.

Throughout the article, Tynan is critical of what he sees as Carson’s unwillingness to address controversial topics on the show. Carson said in response, “I don’t want to get into big debates about abortion, homosexuality, prostitution, and so forth. Not because I’m afraid of them but because we all know the arguments on both sides, and they’re circular. The fact is that TV is probably not the ideal place to discuss serious issues. It’s much better to read about them.” I agree with Johnny here. Carson was always adamant about keeping the focus of The Tonight Show on entertainment, not on politics. Towards the end of the article, Tynan writes:

“If the most we ask of live television is entertainment within the limits set by commercial sponsorship, then Carson, week in, week out, is the very best we shall get. If, on the other hand, we ask to be challenged, disturbed, or provoked at the same time that we are entertained, Carson must inevitably disappoint us. But to blame him for that would be to accuse him of breaking a promise he never made.”

Perhaps the most revealing exchange between Tynan and Carson was this:

Q: Why do you dislike going to parties?

CARSON: Because I get embarrassed by attention and adulation. I don’t know how to react to them in private. Swifty Lazar, for instance, sometimes embarrasses me when he praises me in front of his friends. I feel much more comfortable with a studio audience. On the show, I’m in control. Socially, I’m not in control.

And that pretty much sums up Johnny Carson. On stage, he was perfectly at ease, off stage, he wasn’t. Carson also hated superficial praise and small talk, which made cocktail parties real agony for him.

During Carson’s 1976 commencement address, he gave the students this valuable piece of wisdom: “If you’re happy in what you’re doing, you’ll like yourself. And if you like yourself, you’ll have inner peace. And if you have that, along with physical health, you will have had more success than you could possibly have imagined.” That’s a great quote, and I hope that Johnny Carson found that inner peace.